Talk:Temperance movement

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not just US?[edit]

I do not think it was only in the US - I believe that there was a similar movement in Australia around the same time. --Robert Merkel 01:42 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

The movement is not quite limited to english-speaking countries, as the article says. I don't know about the rest of the world, but all scandinavian countries had "avholdsbevegelser" or temperance movements. They were very popular here in norway, since alcoholism was a HUGE problem in the past. (Advocates against racism will often quote a text denouncing these perpetually drunk, backward people that will never amount to anything, before revealing that the people in question is nineteenth-century norwegians, as seen by british) The norwegian total abstention movement (DNT) was founded by the quaker Asbjørn Kloster, I don't have the year, but not long after the international order of good templars (IOGT) also appeared. In the beginning they mainly resisted the traditions that said to drink alcohol at every conceivable excuse, but they quickly became a reform movemente of note. On prohibition, a significant faction led by Sven Arrestad wanted a gradual strategy of forcing alcohol sale into local monopolies, and then vote (in local referendums) to get rid of them entirely. Arrestad was particularly sensitive to economic considerations, and worked hard (he was a MP) to make sure that the profits from possible monopoly alcohol sale didn't end in local politicians' coffers. However, the majority wanted a national prohibition of liquor, and they won the resulting national referendum by a large majority - not suprising, since women could vote for one of the first times. (aside, the movement was very early in supporting equal rights for women)

Largely due to protest from wine-importing trade partners, a new referendum was held 5-10 years later(?), in which prohibition was removed.

LDS movement[edit]

I was interested in adding some information about the temperance movement in relation to Latter-day Saints. Anyone is welcome to join! Skyes(BYU) (talk) 16:47, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Farang Rak Tham, I'm getting ready to add info about Latter-day Saints and temperance. Since you seem to have a solid vision of how you want this article to look organizationally, where do you think it would fit? It would include information about both history and LDS practices and beliefs so I'm not sure whether it is deserving of its own section or would be better merged somewhere. Thanks for your recent edits, the article is looking much better! Skyes(BYU) (talk) 22:44, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Skyes(BYU), no solid vision yet. Still getting acquainted with the sources. I'll take a look at your content. Is it in your sandbox?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 00:11, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Skyes(BYU), I would add the part from According to some scholars ... onward, and briefly summarize the rest in a sentence. And terms like revelation are devotional and legitimizing in nature. You should attribute such terms to a group or person, rather than use the 'voice of Wikipedia' for that.
I think the article about temperance is getting more and more interesting, and I am happy to continue to pursue this, to bring it up to GA level. It is a "blind spot" in western culture and historical consciousness, and is a story that should be told.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:16, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Farang Rak Tham, thanks for the advice! I will try to apply what you said, but please feel free to make edits as you see fit. I still don't exactly know where to put it, but I will just add it somewhere and we can focus on organization later. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 16:23, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Note that Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) is not being followed in this article in reguards to pre-succession crisis (Latter Day Saints) naming conventions. However the article is semi-protected, so I cannot make the needed changes. -- 155.95.90.240 (talk) 16:19, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Also this is very incomplete, expecially with the early Utah period, which saw an LDS apostle owning a beer brewery in Salt Lake City, and church leaders publicly arguing as late as 1901 that the WoW does not prohibit beer. (See: Thomas G. Alexander, "The Word of Wisdom: From Principle to Requirement", Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 14:3 (1981) pp. 78–88.) It makes it seem as if the current understanding of the WoW alcohol proscription, which date only from Heber J. Grant's presidency, is what was taught and understood since Joseph Smith's time. Grant had a pivotal role in having the LDS Church join the more general temperance movement, and this push by him was a natural extension of the Good Neighbor policy (LDS Church). -- 155.95.90.240 (talk) 16:35, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I am aware that this section is not complete. That is because I'm not finished with it (I have many sources that I have not yet used). I am planning on expanding it, but I have many articles that I am working on right now and I have to make sure I spread out my time among them evenly. This article is semi-protected due to constant issues with vandalism; however, you are welcome to contribute to the article with a verified wikipedia account. I would appreciate your help. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 17:26, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Also, even though I am LDS, I am not an expert in conventional naming of various sects of the LDS church or the history of the churches splitting off. In fact, I do not know much about that at all. Seriously, if you want to use an account and contribute, the article would surely benefit from it.Skyes(BYU) (talk) 17:33, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Farang Rak Tham, thank you for your recent edits and additions. I appreciate your hard work on this article. It's looking better everyday. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 16:29, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Why, thank you too, Skyes! You've been working very hard as well! Sert - happy smile.svg--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:31, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Women storming in saloons to stop the alcohol sales! I think we've got our first Did You Know nominee ...Face-surprise.svg--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 11:37, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Worldwide temperance?[edit]

In writing this article, we must not forget that there already are several article about the temperance movement in several areas of the world. I think it is important to guard that we are not losing ourselves too much in the specifics of each and every region, but rather focus on the trends of temperance as a worldwide phenomenon. Although a majority of sources on the subject tend to focus on temperance in the US, temperance was essentially a worldwide phenomenon at the time, not and American "export product", nor a local form of radicalism. There are four major geographical areas that I have discovered in the sources, that is, the US, the UK, the Nordic countries and Oceania. There was major influence and exchange between these areas, and many parallel developments as I have been reading in Edman (just added to the article in the last weeks).

We have to try to focus on the commonalities. Once the article is above 50 kB, we might have to move too specific content to the appropriate pages on each specific area of the movement. Please note that much of the content may actually be relevant, when we can find evidence that there were parallel developments in other parts of the world.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:01, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Farang Rak Tham, I'm going on vacation for a couple weeks and will be taking a break from Wikipedia, so I won't be contributing to the article for a little bit. In the time being, if you feel the need to edit down some of my overly specific material, feel free. Thanks so much! I'm glad to have the opportunity to collaborate on this article with you! Skyes(BYU) (talk) 16:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Oh, I am not a content killer, Skyes(BYU). I will continue with the article for a while, and see what connections we can make. The question of relevance will become more important once we submit the article for GA, or once it becomes larger than 50 kB or so.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 20:15, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
  • And enjoy your relaxing vacation. Sert - happy smile.svg--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 20:16, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Reverted edit[edit]

Farang Rak Tham Please provide citations for the claim, "There's scholarly consensus that the temperance movement has much affected the civil rights movement". I've never encountered that claim. Mitchumch (talk) 06:41, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@Mitchumch: Please read the section Temperance movement#Beliefs, principles and culture.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 06:47, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Farang Rak Tham Specifically, what are you referring to? I don't see it. Mitchumch (talk) 06:57, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
@Mitchumch: Some examples from the article:

The League campaigned for suffrage and temperance simultaneously, with leader Susan B. Anthony stating that "The only hope of the Anti-Saloon League's success lies in putting the ballot into the hands of women", i.e. it was expected that the first act that women were to take upon themselves after having obtained the right to vote, was to vote for an alcohol ban.[45]

Historical analysis of conference documents helps create an image of what the temperance movement stood for. The movement believed that alcohol abuse was a threat to scientific progress, as it was believed citizens had to be strong and sober to be ready for the modern age. Progressive themes and causes such as abolition, natural self-determination, worker's rights, and the importance of women in rearing children to be good citizens were key themes of this citizenship ideology.

Temperance advocates saw alcohol as a product that "... enables a few to become rich while it impoverishes the very many". Temperance advocates worked closely with the labor movement, as well as the women suffrage movement, partly because there was mutual support and benefit, and the causes were seen as connected.

Indeed, scholar Ruth Bordin stated that the temperance movement was "the foremost example of American feminism."[93] Prominent women such as Amelia Bloomer, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Susan B. Anthony were active in temperance and abolitionist movements in the 1840s.[2]:47

In a Chicago meeting of the National American Woman Suffrage Association, Susan B. Anthony stated that women suffer the most from drunkenness. The inability for women to control wages, vote, or own property added to a woman's vulnerability.[94]:7

At the end of the nineteenth century, temperance movement opponents started to criticize the slave trade in Africa. This came during the last period of rapid colonial expansion. Slavery and alcohol trade in colonies were seen as two closely related problems, described as "the twin oppressors of the people". Again, this subject tied in with the ideas of civilization and effectiveness: temperance advocates raised the issue that the "natives" could not be properly "civilized" and put to work, if they were provided with the vice of alcohol.[38]:35–36

--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 09:41, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
@Farang Rak Tham: None of the things you quoted mention the civil rights movement. Why do you think the above demonstrate a connection to the civil rights movement? Mitchumch (talk) 16:02, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
the RS keep the topics separate. On reason is that the civil rights movement of the late 1860s insisted on excluding women in 15th amendment--it said voting rights for men only. Rjensen (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I have read the article again now, and as it stands, there is no mention of the rights of African Americans. I do believe there was a trend in some temperance organizations to describe the cause of temperance and abolition in terms of a common cause between whites and blacks, and these organizations were very tolerant and respectful to black people. In general, however, the movement emphasized women's rights more than the rights of African Americans. The person who added the wikiproject tag might have aimed at a general connection with civil rights, and not specifically the civil rights movement of African Americans. Having looked at your arguments again, I can understand now why you would remove the tag.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 18:21, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Responding to Rjensen, as I have read and interpreted the sources—and most of what I cited above I wrote myself—the temperance movement was part of civil rights movements in general, but not the American civil rights movement that deals with American segregation of black people. Women suffrage and temperance were very much connected, which is ubiquitous in the sources about temperance movements. In some countries, including Holland and to some extent the United States, temperance also came to be connected with improving the worker's rights. In Holland, one important temperance organization was called the "Blauwe Knoop", lit. 'the blue button', referring to the rights of the blue-collar workers.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 18:30, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

There is a tendency among some editors, as I have also mentioned above on the talk page, to think that the temperance movement was only an American phenomenon. It was not. It was a worldwide phenomenon. There were already in the 19th century international temperance meetings in different places in the world, as extensively described by Erdman as cited in the article.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 18:33, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@Farang Rak Tham: Are you okay with me removing the civil rights movement project from this article. It appears to be a disambiguation issue that led to this confusion. Mitchumch (talk) 20:33, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Alright, agreed.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:44, 8 April 2019 (UTC)